I am not sure how the fact that the Father and the Son being two separate beings impacts the evidence that Michael was the OT name for Jesus? Not sure what you are getting at here? Nor am I sure if that was what Rudy was getting at either Brenden part,if not most of the confusion is trying to explain a subject that is beyond our complete understanding.
What is not understood because of our human limitations is the Godhead. Three in one. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is God also. If this causes you to think in terms of rank or position or what ever tier system that comes to mind, there is none.
They are all equal. Hebrews and John are only a couple of text that support what I am saying. It really becomes even more complicated when Jesus became a human being also. Another characteristic that we cannot completely understand. Humanity and Divinity in one human body. What someone believes does not change the facts. Jesus was known by many different names. Most are descriptive of his nature and plans. If the person that William studied with, believes Jesus is not God, he may be using a text that is the most well known.
Is that not what it says? Brendan, I dont so much dispute the OT aspect of it. But when I think about it further, it is obvious to me that the two are separate entities, even throughout the OT. Calling Jesus the archangel or what have you, is fine. As long as it is clear that he was still the Son, even in heaven.
But it is important to understand the difference in God and Jesus. For instance, in John it says Jesus was there at creation, or that God created it all by working thru Jesus. Then, as a human, again, Jesus earnestly prays to the Father, just as we do.
He was in purely human form, instead of being at the right hand of the throne of his Father. In heaven was where the terms of the plan of salvation was hashed out. Then, when it came time to put it in motion and Jesus was born on earth, he lived a sinless life, but note here he didnt have automatic immunity from sinning. He perfectly reflected the perfect character and love of God, as is clearly stated. As the plan of salvation advances, Jesus now assumes the work of the high priest in the heavenly sanctuary.
More evidence that Jesus can not be God. I always enjoy this discussion, and look forward to asking the questions for myself to the man himself one day! Keith, no one can understand the incarnation of God as Jesus the man. God cannot die, but Jesus the man did. How God is combined with created flesh we cannot explain, but Jesus was on occasion about to be stoned for calling Himself one with God.
There was no mistake by the Jewish leaders of the meaning of Jesus' words. Is Jesus a liar? Did these authorities get it wrong? Jesus said clearly that no one would take His life, but that He would lay down His life and take it up again.
He calls Himself the resurrection and the life and never states that He shares that title. Until you have convincing evidence contrary, it is at peril to speak against what Jesus has taught us, calling Himself "the way, the Truth and the Life". Somethings we can't understand or begin to explain, and with enough evidence to trust in Him, we accept what He tells us by faith.
Also, if this was a hoax, wouldn't Satan be the first to come out and protest? Yet the Bible tells us that even he will bow and confess, when it tells us every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess.
This will take place in the day spoken of when everything secret will be made known and every question is answered concerning the fall and redemption of man. Robert, I wrested in confusion with this concept also. And most of it was with the same points you bring out. The fact of the Godhead is rather obvious. They are even mentioned separately to make it easy for us to grasp. Now as we move into the plan of salvation in Jesus the son coming to earth, his coming had many meanings and fulfilled prophesies of past present and future.
The point of God being in Him, when I ponder this, to me Jesus is saying that Gods spirit and nature is in him, but not him exclusively. If we mold ourselves after his example, we should have God in us also. He lived as we did and was saved totally by his own free will, the same that was imparted to Adam. Then there is the issue of sacrifice of sin. To cover and forgive them once and for all. Only a perfect human sacrifice pays this price. I have trouble with the concept that God made himself as a human on this corrupt earth to send himself as his own sacrifice to die for his own laws.
If the sacrifice was anything more or anything less human, the sacrifice would have not been sufficient to offer. As a human, his faith and obedience and closeness to the father is where he drew the power for his miracles. He was not a human, using his dually imparted supernatural power for 'magic'. Another stumbling point I had as you mentioned, he had the power to take life up again. Think about what the promise of the resurrection is when he returns.
All of the dead in Christ will receive life again, just as Jesus was resurrected on the third day by the father. It should be noted though that this resurrection will be done by the command of the returning Christ, but not until the command to do so by God the father. When asked about the end of time, he tells us that not even be knows when it will be, only the father.
If he was God, we he not know when the end would be? Let me say, that I explain all of the above with a preface of not knowing that some thought that Jesus was God on earth.
I didn't even know this concept until just a few years ago. The seemingly ambiguous points to support this view,to me can not trump the overwhelming evidence to what is stated very clearly otherwise all thru the new testament. Romans I fully admit that none of us fully understand the relationship. But what we can understand is solidified with overwhelming evidence to help us understand the plan of salvation.
I had to weigh out the truth I had already known, against what my SDA church tried to bring in. This was a very major part of why I had to leave the denomination. Not only do I find that this goes against the teaching of Christ and the word, but also against their own one that they consider to be an elite prophetess.
Due to the trinity teaching, it is believed by the majority of churches that Jesus Christ is not the literal begotten Son of God, but instead an equal, co-eternal God alongside the Father. The trinity teaching says that Jesus had no beginning and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that are playing a 'family role'.
In other words, they are just play acting these roles of Father and Son. Because you are either a literal Father and Son, or you are just playing the roles. The Adventist Church along with most other churches have officially rejected the belief that Jesus is the literal Son of God.
Take a look at the following official statement from the Adventist Biblical Research institute which was also published in Adventist World magazine. The Son is not the natural, literal Son of the Father The term 'Son' is used metaphorically when applied to the Godhead. And yet the pioneers of the Seventh-day Adventist church clearly taught that Jesus was the literal son of God. Take a look at the following quotes. The only begotten of the Father. Matteson, Review and Herald, October 12, White, Signs of the Times, May 30, God had promised to give the first-born of heaven to save the sinner.
White, Desire of Ages, p. And what does the main authority, the Word of God have to say on this? Does the Bible suggest in any way that Jesus is just playing a role as the Son of God? Or is He the literal Son? Let us look at some Bible texts to see if we can get some understanding as to who Christ really is. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. For I have given unto them the words which you gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from you, and they have believed that you did send me.
Copy Copied. Powered by Social Snap. New American Standard Bible. Clear Word Bible. John He is by nature both human and divine. This is called the Hypostatic Union. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
The Seventh-day Adventist theology comes shining through in this alteration, which is more commentary than anything else. The SDA church teaches that Jesus is Michael the Archangel; hence, changing the meaning of the text to make it fit their theology. This is not good. Let the Bible speak for itself.
Jude 9. In contrast to these ungodly men is the Lord Jesus, also called Michael the Archangel , for He is over the entire angelic host. This is another example of the Seventh-day Adventist theology governing the paraphrase. Biblically speaking, Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. He offers us a new name. So Michael the archangel is Jesus in his prehuman existence.
The two groups differ, however, regarding the deity of Christ. He is a created being, albeit the most powerful being short of God himself. Note: This latter view has always been considered the aberrant view in Christianity. The explanations by Jehovah's Witnesses such as this one has been linked in other answers but I wanted to provide below summary of the 3 points that I feel together provide the clearest evidence on this.
The term "archangel" is only used in reference to Michael in the Bible. This is in Jude verse 9 which, according to KJV reference here in the right-hand side panel says:. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
At 1 Thessalonians the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel. This passage is quoted below as per KJV reference here in the right-hand side panel. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:.
In essence the reason is that, as explained above , the Bible speaks of only one archangel and it is Jesus that is described as descending with the voice of the archangel. We already know, from scriptures such as Revelation that Jesus as the leader of the angelic host will take the lead in the war of Armageddon.
Revelation says:. Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. It is only logical that the voice expressing the commanding call in 1 Thessalonians quoted above be described in a way that does not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus has.
Biblical basis that Michael is another name for Jesus are numerous. The belief that one of Jesus' many names is Michael by itself does not mean the rejection of Jesus' divinity or the Trinity. The original controversy in heaven was between Jesus and Satan. Satan wanted to be like the Most High. In such a pivotal battle, "Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought" Rev If this was not Jesus Himself, where was He?
Is He not the commander of the Lord's army? Was He not at Joshua's battles? Dan At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered. Rev Now I saw the heaven open, and behold, a white horse.
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean followed Him on white horses. Da And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Jude Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Re And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,. Now, when Jesus will come again, there are several things that the Bible says will happen, which have a connection with Michael the archangel:. Joh Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Mt And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mr And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. There will be a sound of trumpet and the angels will be sent, under the command of Christ, to take his elect from the whole earth. Re And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
In light of this, the name "prince is reserved for Jesus, as ruler of the earth On earth there are many princes, but in the kingdom of God we find only one. Ac And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Ac Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Re And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,. Again we see here that the dead are resurrected by the voice of Jesus. It shows his rulership over Satan, that wanted to keep all of them in their grave, as he did regarding Moses. Joh Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,.
This brings us to a good question. Is Jesus the captain, or prince, of the armies of heaven? Or might he have an angel working under him in that position? We find a definitive answer by comparing two texts of scripture:. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? Re And I fell at his feet to worship him.
And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Notice the contrast. The mighty angel of Revelation refuses the worship of John. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the New Testament references to Michael are all references to Old Testament events: the fall of Lucifer and the resurrection of Moses.
In fact in Hebrews, when it is spoken of the difference between angels and the Son of God, it is said that he rightly receives worship. Heb For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Even more than this, Joshua was commanded to put off his shoes see Josh and this reminds us of what happened to Moses when he saw the burning bush and spoke with God Himself. It is even more interesting to see how the Bible calls God in this context:. Ex And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
And also in Malachi, when speaking about Jesus, the Lord is called "messenger of the covenant", where the Hebrew for "messenger" the common word translated "angel" times in the Old Testament.
Mal Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Jesus, Michael, our Prince, our coming King, captain of the host of the Lord, the Archangel, will descend and rout the prince of this world, send the holy angels to gather the saints, and we will reign with him.
There is no verse that says Michael is not Jesus. There is no verse that says Michael is Jesus. Same accounts to other things, such as, "is Jesus called the Holy Spirit? Same goes with "Trinity", no verse in the Bible. So how do we show evidence that Michael could be Jesus, one and the same? Scripture verses that gives evidence all together. Let's see how many there are.
And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
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